‘Say More With Less’ : Noma Bar in conversation with James Sommerville OBE

Noma Bar | Portfolio

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Noma Bar in Conversation with James Sommerville

Introduction

James:
Hello to everybody. Hello, wherever you may be. How are you? How are things going? Daytime, morning, afternoon, evening, wherever you may be.

That’s the beauty of hosting these calls. We get to connect with people we don’t see on a daily basis. So we’re just going to let everybody roll in. Take a seat anywhere, front or back. Maybe one day we’d love to do this live. Well, this is live, but I mean in person, in a real studio, in a real hall.

I’m just going to ramble for a second while we invite everybody in. My name is James Sommerville, and I’m going to introduce you to Noma in one second.

What I’d like to start by saying is, wherever you are, please interact with us. Drop your name in the chat. Drop your location. Tell us what type of creative role you’re in, if you’re in a creative role, which we’re assuming you are in some capacity.

For us, it’s all about getting to know each other. From our perspective, Known is not an agency. It’s not an agent. We’re not a client. We’re really just trying to use the time we have, and the technology we have, to bring people together.

We are about craft. We are about creativity. We are about community. And I think that’s what today will be about when we speak to Noma.

Welcome to everybody, whatever industry you work in. Everybody’s welcome.

So, focusing on the topic and the person, and in many ways the icon behind the work: Noma Bar. Someone I’ve had the pleasure of working with for 10 years, since my time at Coca-Cola. We’ll come back to that.

Noma, welcome. Thanks for taking time out of your busy day. Everybody say hi. Let’s get this show going.

It’s great to see you, Noma.

Noma:
Great to see you, and great to see some of you. I can see little faces, about two centimetres wide. Good to see you all, and welcome to my studio. It’s in London, in my garden. It’s very small, but enough.

How Noma Starts the Day

James:
I know we touched on the fact that you’re probably working on things that are under NDA, like most people in our field. There’s always a level of secrecy until things are launched.

But do you wake up and think about the project you have to do that day? Or does something catch your eye — maybe a cup of coffee, maybe looking outside at the birds and the trees, or the traffic in London?

How does your morning generally start as you get into the more commercial side of your work?

Noma:
It has changed over the years because I have two girls, so the daily schedule was different when they were in school. But overall, for the last 20 years, I’ve had the same routine: a sketchbook, a little blanket, and I cross the road to Highgate Woods.

It’s a beautiful Victorian wood, about 400 years old. I sit there on a little blanket. It’s actually a car shading blanket, so it’s in the shape of sunglasses. I’ve had the same style of blanket for many years.

It doesn’t matter if it’s raining or snowing outside. I sit on the floor for six or seven hours and brainstorm. That’s every day. That’s the routine.

I try to avoid computers and technology during the day. Then I come back to the studio and start to execute the ideas from the wood.

I’m a bit like a fisherman. I go to the wood, I catch a fish, I go back to the studio, and I start to execute very rough sketches. Sometimes it’s just a line, or an idea, or a direction. Then I continue in the sketchbook, continue to develop it, and eventually it goes digital.

The day ends around 2 a.m., sometimes 3 a.m. A good day is 1 a.m. And I wake up at 7:30. I also do a morning walk, about one hour every morning. When I walk, I organise the day.

Noma Bar on Sketches, Precision and Process

James:
I’m going to ask you more about these sketches, and we have a few pages I’m going to share.

I think most people know you for your precision. I’d almost call it surgical craft. But what I also enjoy looking at, within your collection of books, are those doodles, sketches and ideas, which I guess are part of everybody’s process.

Before that, let’s come back to when you and I first met. It was probably 10 years ago now. I was at Coke, and we were looking for ways to tell new stories, as most brands are always doing.

We came across each other. In no particular order, maybe you could share with everybody some of the things you worked on at Coke, and probably still are working on as well.

Noma Bar on Working with Coca-Cola

Noma:
I think my decision when I started to work with Coke was the same decision I make with every client: it needs to be conceptual, imaginative, and not just a straightforward drawing.

With Coke, I used the same approach I use in editorial work or with other brands. It was about the idea, and that was the core of everything I did with Coke.

It was an amazing collaboration because I didn’t expect to have that level of freedom. There are a lot of little details, and I think the format is great because it allows you to hide little things and little elements.

Obviously, I know this work very well, and maybe some people have seen it. Maybe some of our friends from Coke have seen it — maybe Rapha or some of the team.

When a brand has a shape, or a series of shapes, as Coke does, you can hide things inside it. When we zoom out from those polar bears, as we are here, you might not see that level of detail. But when you zoom in, look at the top-left one, in the gap between the leg and the hand. You can see a Coke bottle.

They all have hidden bottles, which is amazing. We can talk about the bottle as well, which is such an amazing icon. It’s tactile, and it’s just a beautiful bottle.

I did everything with this bottle. I started to draw with the bottle. For me, it’s the next level of drawing: to work with a given element that, on one hand, limits you, but on the other hand gives you a lot of options.

Noma Bar on Brand Shapes and Hidden Icons

James:
This flag, obviously — the US flag — bottle, bottle, bottle, bottles, the bottle cap.

When there’s a brand shape, do you look for that? Take a shape that doesn’t have such an iconic memory for us. Maybe it’s a new brand, maybe it’s a startup, maybe it’s a more complicated shape.

Is that part of your thinking? To think about that shape, whatever it may be, and start to weave it into your stories?

Noma:
It’s that shape, and also the meeting of icons.

It’s so iconic that you can hide it. Things I didn’t know before, I discovered. The highlight on Marilyn Monroe’s lips, for example, can also be a Coke bottle. Or if you go back to Elvis, you can see the crowns on the glasses.

There are things I keep discovering. Obviously, the sideburn is Coke, but it is also Elvis. So it’s one icon meeting another icon.

In that case, when these icons meet, it’s very easy. And if you want to talk about stripping things down, when something is very iconic, it’s easier to strip it down and still have it be recognisable.

James:
This one was always interesting to me. There are others now where culturally they’re very connected, but they’re not necessarily famous in the way Marilyn or Elvis are, or some of the other characters you’ve created.

You’re representing more of a culture or a community in that sense, right?

Noma:
I think I’m representing surprise, double meaning and the unexpected.

A lot of the time, I’m looking at things we all look at. If you go back to the can, we’ve all opened a drinks can and have looked at it so many times. But before that, I didn’t know the hole in the can could look like afro hair.

It’s about looking at the daily, boring things we see every day — whether it’s Coke, or when I go to the wood. A lot of the prints I make in my art follow exactly the same process. It’s discovering unpredictable things in the obvious.

Noma Bar on Coca-Cola Characters and Global Campaigns

James:
Let’s click through a few of these. This is more of an international flavour in many ways, right?

Noma:
Yes. This is for Coca Cola China. It’s a little bit like the Coke project with names. You remember when you could buy a James bottle with your name on it? It’s the same idea, but with characters.

You can share with someone a Coke with your character. There’s the community of the dog lover, the escapist, the attention seeker. There are about 20 different characters in this project: the foodie, the comedian on the left, and others.

I think we worked across 20 or 30 countries.

James:
Do you create these personas, or are they part of a brief? How does that come to you?

Noma:
It’s a brief, and some of them I didn’t know about.

For example, if you look at the left one, it’s called the watermelon eater. It’s a Chinese thing. It’s a character that listens to other people talk. I didn’t know about that.

So if you sit in a restaurant and listen to someone else’s conversation, it’s called the watermelon eater. It comes from markets, where someone would sit and eat watermelon but listen to other people’s stories.

That’s why you have sound lines around the ear. He’s eating and listening. Obviously, he becomes a watermelon, and his eyes are the seeds of the melon.

So this is a given brief in a way: watermelon eater, do something with that. Or do something with “logic genius” on the right, which ends up as a light bulb. There are no rules, just ideas.

James:
And this is completely more detailed, right? From something more simple on the previous page to something more immersive. There’s more going on, in a good way.

Noma:
It depends on the brief.

This is part of a global Coke campaign that exposes different places around the world — culture, food, music. In this case, it’s for Coca Cola South Africa.

You can see Nelson Mandela made from Coke bottles as well. If you zoom in and look at the zebra, it’s made from bottles and elements that were given to me in the brief.

Architecture, a music sports stadium, the female body on the right — everything is iconic places. I’m taking all the icons together and creating characters from those icons.

Noma Bar on A Dream Brand: Lego

James:
Is there a brand out there that you really admire but have never actually worked for? One where you know there’s an idea somewhere in the Noma head, as you’re in the woods?

Noma:
Lego is an interesting brand. I’ve worked with so many brands, but I’ve never worked with Lego.

I think it’s a fascinating brand. If I could choose one brand, it would probably be Lego. It’s already a brand about creativity, and that’s what’s fascinating.

A Farewell Gift from Coke

James:
I met you at Coke. You created this when the team asked you to make something when I departed Coke. I was blessed to have that little bit of Noma magic.

I’m going to come back to this. It’s made of 150 bottles, or even more.

Noma:
I never actually counted them.

Noma Bar’s Sketchbooks

James:
Let’s go back to the idea of you sketching. I’ve just got this image of you in the woods on that sheet you described.

Noma:
Let me explain the sketches.

I’m surrounded by hundreds and hundreds of sketchbooks. There is a sketchbook for daily commercial things, and there are other sketchbooks that are more like a daily diary — things I’m doing during the day.

If I’m going to meet you in a café, probably the napkin with a coffee stain will end up in the sketchbook and something will happen.

That’s a bit different from the sketchbook I sit with in the wood when I’m brainstorming. But yes, there are sketchbooks for big ideas or silhouettes. When I have something, I just draw it and it’s there.

Some of them are reactions to things I see, and some of them are layers and layers and cuts. There’s no rule, but it’s my memory in a way.

Those sketchbooks help me remember where and when. I’m not good with dates, hours, streets or places, so they are my memories translated into visuals that I take from places.

I like to kill things as well. There’s the opposite of the surgical thing you described, and it’s deliberately like that. I tear things. I tear stickers. I tear tissues.

I love the tear. The fact that paper is not precise. You don’t know what’s going to happen or what you’re going to get when you tear it. Suddenly, you discover something — someone’s body, someone’s face — and it’s uncontrolled.

So I never use scissors on sketchbooks.

Noma Bar on Personal Work and Commercial Practice

James:
Are these sketches part of your process for a commercial output, or are they more personal work for you at this point?

Noma:
They’re more personal because you’re not going to understand the story.

You wouldn’t know that the one on the left is from Japan, when I went to the GGG exhibition with Mickey, my agent. And you wouldn’t know that the one on the right is me struggling for five hours to put together an IKEA fan that doesn’t fit. That’s the instruction for how to put the fan together.

So these are personal in a way.

But if I’m going to have a story about hot weather, elements from here — about fire and fight — might come into the commercial work. So they feed each other.

The idea is that the brain and the hand constantly work together. It’s a little bit like being a sportsperson, like a professional runner. It’s constant. That’s my gym, in a way. The gym of my brain.

I keep training myself when I’m outside the studio, when I’m on the train, when I’m on the street. When I engage with people normally, my engagement is not normal because I’m collecting things and putting them into the sketchbook.

So it’s a slightly different way to see the world.

Noma Bar on Reduction, Noise and the Pulp Fiction Cover

James:
This idea of reduction, which I spoke about earlier — the fact that there is so much noise and content out there, and none of us can hide from it.

You are this master of stripping away the unnecessary without losing the story. In fact, you elevate the story and the image.

Is there a point where you go too far? Or where you make a happy accident, a mistake, something happens?

This Pulp Fiction one is obviously genius, but maybe there’s also a hidden story behind it for you to share.

Noma:
In general, reduction is relative. To be minimal, you need to be in a maximalist environment in a way.

If the environment around me wasn’t so busy — I started to feel it from the mid-80s and the 90s, with David Carson, stretched type, multi-layered Photoshop — I felt I needed to clean myself, especially after I graduated.

So reduction for me is a personal reaction to what’s around me, to the noise around me. But it’s also a pleasure. There’s something clean about it.

It’s a bit like moving from the noise in the sketchbook and then cleaning things on the screen, making things communicate more clearly.

In this case, there’s a funny mistake.

It actually started in London. I got the commission and started to work on it in London. Then I went to Japan. I sent it, and it was approved. It almost went to print, but I said I needed to look at it again.

Then I went to Australia, and when I opened the laptop, all the afro hair fell down onto the guns and they disappeared. It was just an accident of layers.

For people who don’t know how I work, Illustrator is based on layers, and things can move. So the whole layer actually covered the gun, and I thought, that’s it. I don’t need a gun.

It’s something that happens quite a lot. It’s a debate: Do I need eyes? Can I stay with only one eye? Can I stay with a mouth? How can I tell the story with one little thing?

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Noma Bar on Illustration or Illusion?

James:
A couple of thoughts. You mentioned Illustrator, Adobe Illustrator. Based on that word, give me one answer: illustration or illusion?

In terms of what you think people see, and how people see your work, do they see illustration or do they see illusion?

Noma:
I don’t know. You need to ask them. I see illustration, but sometimes illusion.

I don’t really like the word illusion, or “visual illusion,” because illusion takes me to something out of context — the duck and the rabbit, for example. Illustration is about the story.

So it’s probably illustration. “Illustration” comes from “illumina” — light. You’re putting light on text, and this is what I’m doing. The illusion is there, but it’s not the main part. The main part is illustration, and telling the story.

In this case, with reduction as well, I’m still getting emails from people discovering things. This was published seven, eight, maybe nine years ago, and I still get emails from people discovering there is a commander on the right side of the image.

You can see a face on the right image, in close-up. He is kind of leaning on the caped woman. It’s one of my favourite covers, and for me it’s obvious, but people are still discovering it.

It’s interesting to discover something after many years — when you have a book on your shelf and suddenly see something you hadn’t seen before.

Noma Bar on Editorial Work and Visual Journalism

James:
You’re connecting us to things we know. It could be a book, a movie, a movie star.

There’s also, in your editorial world, a degree of responsibility. You’re doing a kind of visual journalism. Certainly, in terms of what’s happening somewhere in the world, there’s always a news headline.

With your editorial work, I’m not sure whether those are monthly commissions or on demand. How does that work from your side, Noma?

Noma:
As you can see, I live in different circles. Probably the inner circle is artist, designer or illustrator, and journalist.

The journalism side is a different world from branding in terms of reaction and speed. I did the comment and debate section in The Guardian for 10 years. That was really, really fast. The copy arrived at 12, and the image needed to be ready by 5.

It’s a different way of working with journalism, but the freedom is massive. There’s a lot of freedom to express myself, although I’m still illustrating words and a story. The speed matters as well, because things need to go out straight away.

With newspapers and magazines, it’s a different way of working because there’s more time. I’m now doing a monthly illustration in one magazine and a weekly illustration in a Dutch magazine.

So I’m still doing work that is weekly, and I’m scheduled for the rest of the year on a weekly and monthly basis.

Everything starts in the wood with the sketchbook, but then it develops differently depending on the project.

I would say that with brands, it’s more difficult. There are probably more decision makers, and it’s more complicated. Each image goes through many stages, whereas in journalism it’s faster and riskier as well.

Noma Bar on Brands, Decision Makers and Creative Freedom

James:
How do you feel about that?

Obviously, myself included, and maybe many people on the call, are part of more of a brand world. That means more layers of decision making, opinions, maybe even testing — compared with a book cover, where you’re responsible to the author, the public or the publisher.

In other words, larger groups or smaller groups. Are you okay navigating those two layers? Does your work get diluted when there are lots more decision makers?

Noma:
I hope not.

Sometimes, when that happens, I step back. I don’t take jobs where I know there will be a risk of that. You need to sense it from the start, and I reject a lot of work that I feel might not work out.

But I’m okay with changes — “final one,” “final final one,” “final final final two” — those endless files that happen with brands and commercial work.

It’s obviously easier when there is one decision maker. When you work with a creative director, in a way I’m privileged because most of my clients are creatives and creative directors.

They’re from ad agencies, magazines or publishers. So I’m working with people who understand my work. No one really comes to me and asks for something completely different.

Noma Bar on Tight Deadlines

James:
A question from someone in the group. Joel asks: how do you cope with a tight deadline?

For example, “we need this tomorrow” — either because it’s topical, it’s newsworthy, or they’re launching something. Is that something you can factor in, given your process? Or do you prefer more thinking time and crafting time?

How do you feel about those super tight deadlines?

Noma:
Go back to The Guardian.

A Guardian day would start with a daily illustration. The next day would begin with 8,000 words arriving at 12. Roughs needed to be sent by 3. Final artwork by 5. It’s crazy.

After a day like that, I’m on my back, exhausted.

Sometimes Boris Johnson would change his speech or something, and then you’d get new copy at 3 and the deadline would be extended to 6. It’s really, really hard.

So I prefer more time. Definitely, more time is better.

But a lot of things can happen under stress as well. There are a lot of weak decisions, but sometimes it’s interesting. You surprise yourself.

For my personal health, though, longer is better.

Noma Bar on Creative Blocks

James:
On that point — health for everybody in our industry — Shane asks a question from the audience.

Do you ever encounter creative blocks? Given the deadlines we all have to deliver on, is there a point where you’re stuck? Like writer’s block, but in your case around illustration and storytelling?

Noma:
No.

The follow-up would be: if so, how do you overcome that?

You know those little toy jeeps that bump into a wall, then turn and spin? It’s a little bit like that. I don’t allow myself to bump into the wall. If I am bumping into the wall, I turn.

I know there’s a solution.

So I’ve never had a block. For me, everything is possible to illustrate. I deal with crazy, extreme, difficult briefs.

Coke and the things you see here are more clear, but when it comes to science and health sectors, things are very difficult to illustrate. But there is always a solution. There is always one word that will meet another word, another story.

So I’ve never had something where I was blocked.

Noma Bar on Animation and Connected Storytelling

James:
The reason this is a black screen is because there’s an animation. You’ve teed this up perfectly: this idea of connecting things.

I’m going to play one of Noma’s animations, where you have this seamless visual journey. Maybe I’ll play it first, and then you can speak to it. This is just one of many that you sent.

[Animation plays — Mercedes-Benz “Blind Spot Assist” ad]

Not only fully connected visually, but fast, quick storytelling.

Talk to us a little bit about the animation side of your work as well, Noma. Do you script that? Is it coming from the agency or the brand?

How do you get to this end solution? It’s probably 15 to 20 seconds.

Noma:
Animation is a bit different from what we’ve been talking about with static images, in terms of process.

Here I’m combining my two sides of personality: the introvert and the extrovert. When I go into something like that, I’m the animation director. I need to work with musicians, writers.

Obviously Helen and Dutch Uncle are the production side, and they do an amazing job with the whole orchestra. But it’s a different way of working. It’s a large team, and sometimes we can end up with 30 people involved in an animation.

But the core of it is exactly the same: the sketchbook, the wood and drawing. Then I go to the computer, prepare everything for the animator, and then change a million things with clients.

Noma Bar on Kelly Partners and Creative Work in “Dry” Categories

[Kelly Partners animation plays]

James:
What I like about this one is the fact that I don’t know Kelly Partners Chartered Accountants, but all credit to them for engaging with you in whichever way they did.

Maybe they’re not the cool, sexy brand that everybody knows around the world, but they had either the courage or the foresight to engage someone like you.

Do you have a lot of brands like that, that also connect with you aside from the more famous, well-known brands?

Noma:
Not a lot.

This is an interesting one. Kelly Partners is a guy who took a small accounting firm, a bit like the Foxtons model in terms of business, and now has something like 50 branches around the world.

It’s quite unusual from what I normally do, but it gives me a lot of freedom and it’s fun to work with.

I don’t choose a client by the fame of the brand. It’s about the brief and about creativity.

Sometimes it’s very interesting to go into an area that isn’t already creative — not the Lego area, which is already creative — and start to do creative things in categories people call boring or dry, like accounting.

So it’s interesting.

The Lion and the Cat

James:
This one is quite personal to me as well, because we worked on this a little bit together.

This idea that sometimes everyone is a lion, and sometimes we can all be a cat. Slightly smaller, more careful in the way we live our lives. Both the lion roaring and the cat purring.

This notion of being able to blend that, and turn this circle or rotate this circle upside down — we get to see both sides of that story.

Noma:
Yes. That was part of your brief in a way: transformation, changing.

The cat wants to be a lion, and the lion wants to be a cat. It’s actually going to be in my exhibition as well.

Not this one — I’m going to go back. Yes, this one.

James:
I’m trying to navigate Keynote because people are coming in and I have to accept them.

But I think this idea of being able to tell two stories — between a lion and a cat — is very powerful.

For people on the call, this was a thought about my personal transformation. I was, and still am, an introvert. But sometimes I realised I needed to step up and be a lion.

The way you blended those perfectly also speaks to your exhibition that’s coming up, because I know you’ve got this on a wheel that people can rotate and discover.

Noma Bar on his Tel Aviv Museum of Modern Art Exhibition

Noma:
Yes. It’s going to be in the Tel Aviv Museum of Modern Art.

It will be four floors: sculptures, prints, rotating things. Some of the elements will be 3 meter sculptures, videos, sketchbooks.

Each floor is different. It’s a retrospective in a way. It’s a very exciting, massive space. I’ve been working for a year, a year and a half, with a large team on this exhibition.

James:
Have you started to publish anything about it? Where could people find it, discover it, go there physically in person, or will there be an online version?

Noma:
I hope so.

When we start to announce it publicly, people will see it, and hopefully we’ll show videos and images from it.

Noma Bar on his Favourite Industries and Categories

James:
Here’s another question from Sandra — thank you, Sandra.

Which industry do you enjoy working in the most, Noma? We’ve touched on beverages, FMCG, accountants, publishing, automotive, hospitality.

Are there particular categories, or subjects, that excite you? You mentioned Lego.

Noma:
I can’t put my finger on a category that I really enjoy. I enjoy all of them.

It sounds bad, but just give me a brief and a reason to draw and think, and I enjoy it.

Probably editorial and book covers have more freedom and are more edgy. So maybe editorial.

I have a weekly column — it’s like the Dutch Guardian — and it’s about debate. It’s a weekly debate between two experts, and that’s interesting because it goes into quite extreme subjects.

But I can also be surprised by working with Coke and getting an interesting brief.

So no, I don’t think I have one favourite category.

Noma Bar on Art Movements and Influences

James:
I’ve stopped sharing because we have so many questions coming in.

Katherine, particularly — thanks, Katherine. A ton of questions.

One of them is: which art movements or styles inspire you?

I’m also super interested to know where you studied and graduated. Are there things from history that still capture your attention, that you want to discover more of?

Talk to us about the past and how that inspires you today.

Noma:
There’s this postcard that has gone with me all my life. It’s next to my desk.

It’s from where my father used to work for 46 years — a tree and forest organisation. You can see a child hugging a tree, but the tree is actually the child. His legs are the trunk.

This is my starting point. It’s very graphic, but you can take it to Polish posters, German design and early 1920s design.

So probably things from that area: early screen print, Russian propaganda. You can find Japanese work, Chinese work. It’s really a mix.

I think my style changes with the brief too. Every brief takes it somewhere else. When it comes to animation, it’s completely different.

But yes — Polish and German posters, mid-century, Bauhaus.

Noma Bar on Illustrating Optimism

James:
Let’s find another couple of questions.

Adrian asks: how do you illustrate a concept such as optimism? More of a feeling or concept, rather than a subject matter.

Noma:
Everything can be visualised.

So if you’re talking about illustrating optimism, I guess that has different visual interpretations as well.